tyranusfan
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Reply with quote | #481 |
Quote: Originally Posted by Mikiya
Maybe the last seal had to be broken by a "human-turned-monster" just like Lucifer turned Lilith into the first demon, but a human who turned into that willingly or something like that. Or maybe it's something like "If a righteous man sheds a demon's blood the final seal will be broken". Huh. Well. No, doesn't sound that good to me.
Actually, that sounds interesting to me. Lucifer turned Lilith into a demon to get revenge on God (according to what Ruby told Sam), so the final seal to free him is, poetically, the human who willing turned himself into a demon to get revenge (on Lilith).
(Based on what Lilith said to Sam "you turned yourself into a freak, a monster, and now you're not going to bite." Then his eyes turned black when he got mad and attacked again.)
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| | shmrck14
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Reply with quote | #482 |
Something struck me on rewatching Lucifer Rising last night. It's probbably been mentioned before so sorry if I'm rehashing. Ruby tells Sam he didn't need the blood it was in him all along but then when he tries to exercise her she laughs and says he shot the payload (or something like that) on Lilith. This would make her statment untrue, yes, I know demons lie, and he does need the blood. Which of course then goes back to the question of why does he need it when the other special children didn't.
Ok, that's all too circular...my head hurts now 
I hope they address this one way or the other in S5, not just make Sam's story about the physical addiction and don't address whether not the power is intrinsic to Sam.
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| | jenilee
Registered: 05/25/07
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Reply with quote | #483 |
Quote: Originally Posted by shmrck14Something struck me on rewatching Lucifer Rising last night. It's probbably been mentioned before so sorry if I'm rehashing. Ruby tells Sam he didn't need the blood it was in him all along but then when he tries to exercise her she laughs and says he shot the payload (or something like that) on Lilith. This would make her statment untrue, yes, I know demons lie, and he does need the blood. Which of course then goes back to the question of why does he need it when the other special children didn't. Ok, that's all too circular...my head hurts now I hope they address this one way or the other in S5, not just make Sam's story about the physical addiction and don't address whether not the power is intrinsic to Sam. Maybe it's a focus point for him? Like a magician would use a staff. It's not the staff or wand that has the magic just a focal point for them to gather it to.
The blood is the same idea it's a prop to get through the barrier to use the magic.
Alot of magice users deplete their payload and have to rest or whatever before they can do it again.
Of course it all depends which writer you read. LOL
I just have to add that maybe he needed it because his hatred of his abilities wouldn't let him break through the barriers to use them without having some sort of prop to make it ok. A way to feel like he was in control. That they can't get out of hand if he isn't drinking the blood everything is ok but they are there if he needs them.
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| | sUnKiSsT
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Reply with quote | #484 |
Quote: Originally Posted by jenileeQuote: Originally Posted by shmrck14Something struck me on rewatching Lucifer Rising last night. It's probbably been mentioned before so sorry if I'm rehashing. Ruby tells Sam he didn't need the blood it was in him all along but then when he tries to exercise her she laughs and says he shot the payload (or something like that) on Lilith. This would make her statment untrue, yes, I know demons lie, and he does need the blood. Which of course then goes back to the question of why does he need it when the other special children didn't. Ok, that's all too circular...my head hurts now I hope they address this one way or the other in S5, not just make Sam's story about the physical addiction and don't address whether not the power is intrinsic to Sam. Maybe it's a focus point for him? Like a magician would use a staff. It's not the staff or wand that has the magic just a focal point for them to gather it to.
The blood is the same idea it's a prop to get through the barrier to use the magic.
Alot of magice users deplete their payload and have to rest or whatever before they can do it again.
Of course it all depends which writer you read. LOL
I just have to add that maybe he needed it because his hatred of his abilities wouldn't let him break through the barriers to use them without having some sort of prop to make it ok. A way to feel like he was in control. That they can't get out of hand if he isn't drinking the blood everything is ok but they are there if he needs them.
Heh, *scrunches eyes and pictures Sam with a wand*
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| | jenilee
Registered: 05/25/07
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Reply with quote | #485 |
Quote: Originally Posted by sUnKiSsTQuote: Originally Posted by jenileeQuote: Originally Posted by shmrck14Something struck me on rewatching Lucifer Rising last night. It's probbably been mentioned before so sorry if I'm rehashing. Ruby tells Sam he didn't need the blood it was in him all along but then when he tries to exercise her she laughs and says he shot the payload (or something like that) on Lilith. This would make her statment untrue, yes, I know demons lie, and he does need the blood. Which of course then goes back to the question of why does he need it when the other special children didn't. Ok, that's all too circular...my head hurts now I hope they address this one way or the other in S5, not just make Sam's story about the physical addiction and don't address whether not the power is intrinsic to Sam. Maybe it's a focus point for him? Like a magician would use a staff. It's not the staff or wand that has the magic just a focal point for them to gather it to.
The blood is the same idea it's a prop to get through the barrier to use the magic.
Alot of magice users deplete their payload and have to rest or whatever before they can do it again.
Of course it all depends which writer you read. LOL
I just have to add that maybe he needed it because his hatred of his abilities wouldn't let him break through the barriers to use them without having some sort of prop to make it ok. A way to feel like he was in control. That they can't get out of hand if he isn't drinking the blood everything is ok but they are there if he needs them.
Heh, *scrunches eyes and pictures Sam with a wand*
Awwww! You just reminded me that little Sammy wanted to be a magician. LOL
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| | tyranusfan
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Reply with quote | #486 |
Quote: Originally Posted by shmrck14
Something struck me on rewatching Lucifer Rising last night. It's probbably been mentioned before so sorry if I'm rehashing. Ruby tells Sam he didn't need the blood it was in him all along but then when he tries to exercise her she laughs and says he shot the payload (or something like that) on Lilith. This would make her statment untrue, yes, I know demons lie, and he does need the blood. Which of course then goes back to the question of why does he need it when the other special children didn't.
I hope they address this one way or the other in S5, not just make Sam's story about the physical addiction and don't address whether not the power is intrinsic to Sam.
Yeah, they need to explain it.
My thought was that she meant he simply exhausted himself.
I think the blood was a way to distract him and keep him so worked up that he wouldn't ask too many questions and would be so whacked out that he would go over the edge mentally (which he did in Levee). Levee made it pretty clear that Ruby was using his addiction against him, by cutting him off for weeks on end.
We know from "Nightmare" "Croatoan" and "Simon Said" that the visions were physically exhausting and painful to the point where he couldn't stand up.
So, after expending so much energy killing Lilith, he simply overexerted his brain when he went to attack Ruby. He was already sweating when he finished with Lilith, you can see it when he first realizes that he broke the seal. Like overworking a muscle, he hurt himself by trying to get Ruby, after killing Lilith and all her minions (remember, he'd already killed about a dozen or more demons).
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| | shmrck14
Registered: 09/24/08
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Reply with quote | #487 |
Quote: Originally Posted by tyranusfanQuote: Originally Posted by shmrck14
Something struck me on rewatching Lucifer Rising last night. It's probbably been mentioned before so sorry if I'm rehashing. Ruby tells Sam he didn't need the blood it was in him all along but then when he tries to exercise her she laughs and says he shot the payload (or something like that) on Lilith. This would make her statment untrue, yes, I know demons lie, and he does need the blood. Which of course then goes back to the question of why does he need it when the other special children didn't.
I hope they address this one way or the other in S5, not just make Sam's story about the physical addiction and don't address whether not the power is intrinsic to Sam.
Yeah, they need to explain it. My thought was that she meant he simply exhausted himself. I think the blood was a way to distract him and keep him so worked up that he wouldn't ask too many questions and would be so whacked out that he would go over the edge mentally (which he did in Levee). Levee made it pretty clear that Ruby was using his addiction against him, by cutting him off for weeks on end. We know from "Nightmare" "Croatoan" and "Simon Said" that the visions were physically exhausting and painful to the point where he couldn't stand up. So, after expending so much energy killing Lilith, he simply overexerted his brain when he went to attack Ruby. He was already sweating when he finished with Lilith, you can see it when he first realizes that he broke the seal. Like overworking a muscle, he hurt himself by trying to get Ruby, after killing Lilith and all her minions (remember, he'd already killed about a dozen or more demons). All good points, we'll just have to wait and see! |
| | Ghost
Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 292
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Reply with quote | #488 |
Quote: Originally Posted by tyranusfan
Yeah, they need to explain it.
My thought was that she meant he simply exhausted himself.
I think the blood was a way to distract him and keep him so worked up that he wouldn't ask too many questions and would be so whacked out that he would go over the edge mentally (which he did in Levee). Levee made it pretty clear that Ruby was using his addiction against him, by cutting him off for weeks on end.
We know from "Nightmare" "Croatoan" and "Simon Said" that the visions were physically exhausting and painful to the point where he couldn't stand up.
So, after expending so much energy killing Lilith, he simply overexerted his brain when he went to attack Ruby. He was already sweating when he finished with Lilith, you can see it when he first realizes that he broke the seal. Like overworking a muscle, he hurt himself by trying to get Ruby, after killing Lilith and all her minions (remember, he'd already killed about a dozen or more demons).
Yeah, I agree that he probably had just exhausted himself with Lilith (at least that's how I took it) and that after a few days, he'd be good to go again.
I like the idea that the blood was a way to keep him confused and 'needy' even as his powers grew.  I hadn't thought of that, but I think it's the best explanation I've seen. A side effect would be that Ruby would have some say in which powers he developed: if we go by what happened to Eva and Jake, once one of YE's kids started using their powers, they started gaining all sorts of new ones (like controlling demons, TK, super strenght, mind control, and killing by touch). We've seen Sam access precognitive powers, TK (unconsiously), and controling demons... but his visions and his TK stopped once Ruby started his training. None of the other kids needed trained, either. Their powers just came. I wonder if that was something Sam-wise (as in childhood issues) or if it could have been the blood actually holding his powers back?
Just thinking out loud.
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| | tyranusfan
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Reply with quote | #489 |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost
Yeah, I agree that he probably had just exhausted himself with Lilith (at least that's how I took it) and that after a few days, he'd be good to go again.
Presumably, yes. Though, I doubt Sam will willingly even try.
Quote: I like the idea that the blood was a way to keep him confused and 'needy' even as his powers grew. I hadn't thought of that, but I think it's the best explanation I've seen. A side effect would be that Ruby would have some say in which powers he developed: if we go by what happened to Eva and Jake, once one of YE's kids started using their powers, they started gaining all sorts of new ones (like controlling demons, TK, super strenght, mind control, and killing by touch). We've seen Sam access precognitive powers, TK (unconsiously), and controling demons... but his visions and his TK stopped once Ruby started his training. None of the other kids needed trained, either. Their powers just came. I wonder if that was something Sam-wise (as in childhood issues) or if it could have been the blood actually holding his powers back?
If anything was holding them back, I think it's his own insecurities. He was brought up to think anything inhuman or superhuman was a monster (see s2 Bloodlust), so when he sees himself using these powers, he sees himself as a freak of nature, and later as a monster.
I think, despite it's flaws, S4 was trying to ask "what makes a monster a monster?" Sam is, in his mind and in a hunter's mind, a monster. But, we've seen that he really isn't. He's emotionally and psychologically broken, for sure. He's made some bad judgment calls, but that was mainly because he was being fed disinformation.
But, that question is IMHO what is holding him back from the edge that Jake and Ava went over. They embraced their powers as a way to survive and eventually conquer. Sam only embraced his when his world fell apart (Dean dying), and he had nothing else to live for. They make it pretty clear in the later episodes of the season that Sam was on a suicide run. He had no intention of using his powers beyond killing Lilith, because he expected to either die trying, or die soon after.
In a lot of ways, he's much closer to Max Miller than Jake or Ava.
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Accounting is all data entry and math... I can't think of a better job for robots. Except for murdering humans...robots would be pretty good at that too. |
| | Mikiya
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Reply with quote | #490 |
Quote: Originally Posted by tyranusfanQuote: Originally Posted by Mikiya
Maybe the last seal had to be broken by a "human-turned-monster" just like Lucifer turned Lilith into the first demon, but a human who turned into that willingly or something like that. Or maybe it's something like "If a righteous man sheds a demon's blood the final seal will be broken". Huh. Well. No, doesn't sound that good to me.
Actually, that sounds interesting to me. Lucifer turned Lilith into a demon to get revenge on God (according to what Ruby told Sam), so the final seal to free him is, poetically, the human who willing turned himself into a demon to get revenge (on Lilith). (Based on what Lilith said to Sam "you turned yourself into a freak, a monster, and now you're not going to bite." Then his eyes turned black when he got mad and attacked again.)
I just read a story about Sam drinking that poor woman dry and I have a new theory that kind of goes along with "Sam turning himself into a freak"-thing:
The first seal was broken by a righteous (God, I hate that word) man shedding blood in hell. What if the last seal had to be broken by a righteous man (or turned-himself-into-a-freak-man or whatever) who spilled the blood of innocents on earth? So it was never about the powers in the blood or in the demonic blood of possessed people but only the act of Sam drinking that stuff from an innocent woman? Sam would NEVER have done that willlingly, I don't see any way you could have tricked him into doing that but this, tell him he needs to drink it to beat Lilith, maybe that's what gave him the power to do it, not that he had blood from a possessed human inside him but that he was willing to drink it (maybe even kill the poor woman for it).
What do you think?
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| | tyranusfan
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Reply with quote | #491 |
Quote: Originally Posted by Mikiya
I just read a story about Sam drinking that poor woman dry and I have a new theory that kind of goes along with "Sam turning himself into a freak"-thing:
The first seal was broken by a righteous (God, I hate that word) man shedding blood in hell. What if the last seal had to be broken by a righteous man (or turned-himself-into-a-freak-man or whatever) who spilled the blood of innocents on earth? So it was never about the powers in the blood or in the demonic blood of possessed people but only the act of Sam drinking that stuff from an innocent woman? Sam would NEVER have done that willingly, I don't see any way you could have tricked him into doing that but this, tell him he needs to drink it to beat Lilith, maybe that's what gave him the power to do it, not that he had blood from a possessed human inside him but that he was willing to drink it (maybe even kill the poor woman for it).
What do you think?
That he was willing to cross the line for his vengeance. Yeah, I can see that.
That also addresses Zach's line earlier about the last seal "only Lilith can break it." In regard to your idea, Lilith had to "break" Sam. Much like they broke Dean, they broke Sam, finally, at the moment when he heard the faked message (from the angels) and, like Dean, he shed blood.
That's a good theory. It plays into the idea of the brothers being bookends of all this. Their sins are identical, just in two different places. And, both had to be broken to do it.
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Accounting is all data entry and math... I can't think of a better job for robots. Except for murdering humans...robots would be pretty good at that too. |
| | jenilee
Registered: 05/25/07
Posts: 1,341
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Reply with quote | #492 |
Quote: Originally Posted by tyranusfanQuote: Originally Posted by Mikiya
I just read a story about Sam drinking that poor woman dry and I have a new theory that kind of goes along with "Sam turning himself into a freak"-thing:
The first seal was broken by a righteous (God, I hate that word) man shedding blood in hell. What if the last seal had to be broken by a righteous man (or turned-himself-into-a-freak-man or whatever) who spilled the blood of innocents on earth? So it was never about the powers in the blood or in the demonic blood of possessed people but only the act of Sam drinking that stuff from an innocent woman? Sam would NEVER have done that willingly, I don't see any way you could have tricked him into doing that but this, tell him he needs to drink it to beat Lilith, maybe that's what gave him the power to do it, not that he had blood from a possessed human inside him but that he was willing to drink it (maybe even kill the poor woman for it).
What do you think?
That he was willing to cross the line for his vengeance. Yeah, I can see that. That also addresses Zach's line earlier about the last seal "only Lilith can break it." In regard to your idea, Lilith had to "break" Sam. Much like they broke Dean, they broke Sam, finally, at the moment when he heard the faked message (from the angels) and, like Dean, he shed blood. That's a good theory. It plays into the idea of the brothers being bookends of all this. Their sins are identical, just in two different places. And, both had to be broken to do it. That is a great theory and makes all kinds of sense.
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| | Mikiya
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Reply with quote | #493 |
Quote: Originally Posted by jenileeQuote: Originally Posted by tyranusfanQuote: Originally Posted by Mikiya
I just read a story about Sam drinking that poor woman dry and I have a new theory that kind of goes along with "Sam turning himself into a freak"-thing:
The first seal was broken by a righteous (God, I hate that word) man shedding blood in hell. What if the last seal had to be broken by a righteous man (or turned-himself-into-a-freak-man or whatever) who spilled the blood of innocents on earth? So it was never about the powers in the blood or in the demonic blood of possessed people but only the act of Sam drinking that stuff from an innocent woman? Sam would NEVER have done that willingly, I don't see any way you could have tricked him into doing that but this, tell him he needs to drink it to beat Lilith, maybe that's what gave him the power to do it, not that he had blood from a possessed human inside him but that he was willing to drink it (maybe even kill the poor woman for it).
What do you think?
That he was willing to cross the line for his vengeance. Yeah, I can see that. That also addresses Zach's line earlier about the last seal "only Lilith can break it." In regard to your idea, Lilith had to "break" Sam. Much like they broke Dean, they broke Sam, finally, at the moment when he heard the faked message (from the angels) and, like Dean, he shed blood. That's a good theory. It plays into the idea of the brothers being bookends of all this. Their sins are identical, just in two different places. And, both had to be broken to do it. That is a great theory and makes all kinds of sense.
What I really like about it, though that may sound strange considering how it turned out, is the fact that it would still be about free will, that it has not been the demon blood then who made him do it but that he could have stopped this if he had had certain information. But, knowing Kripke's way of telling a story, I don't think we'll ever know cause Lucifer has been set free now and how it came to that is completely unimportant.
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| | tyranusfan
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Reply with quote | #494 |
Quote: Originally Posted by Mikiya
What I really like about it, though that may sound strange considering how it turned out, is the fact that it would still be about free will, that it has not been the demon blood then who made him do it but that he could have stopped this if he had had certain information. But, knowing Kripke's way of telling a story, I don't think we'll ever know cause Lucifer has been set free now and how it came to that is completely unimportant.
Well, for whatever it's worth, on the S4 DVDs, Kripke is still talking about free will (in the wake of the finale), so maybe the cause isn't completely unimportant.
Either way, we'll find out soon.
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Accounting is all data entry and math... I can't think of a better job for robots. Except for murdering humans...robots would be pretty good at that too. |
| | shmrck14
Registered: 09/24/08
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Reply with quote | #495 |
Quote: Originally Posted by tyranusfanQuote: Originally Posted by Mikiya
What I really like about it, though that may sound strange considering how it turned out, is the fact that it would still be about free will, that it has not been the demon blood then who made him do it but that he could have stopped this if he had had certain information. But, knowing Kripke's way of telling a story, I don't think we'll ever know cause Lucifer has been set free now and how it came to that is completely unimportant.
Well, for whatever it's worth, on the S4 DVDs, Kripke is still talking about free will (in the wake of the finale), so maybe the cause isn't completely unimportant. Either way, we'll find out soon. I really hope you are right that we will find out soon. I have my doubts because in one of the comic con interviews, not the panel, Kripke said there are no plans to address the voicemail. I think that is huge to leave out and so it makes me wonder what else will not be followed up. |
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