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SFTCOL(AR)S > Forums > Running with the Devil. > 5x07 The Curious Case of Dean Winchester
 
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Mikiya
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 882

    11/02/09 at 10:33 AM
  Reply with quote#46

I've read similar comments about that episode and I don't agree with them.

First of all, people just keep forgetting that Sam said "ONE of the reasons I went with Ruby" not THE reason or THE ONLY reason and I think that's exactly the point where most people go wrong with their interpretation.

Sam wasn't talking about how Dean never let him grow up in seasons 2 or 3, he was talking about how Dean was treating him after he came back from Hell and especially after Dean telling him that, sure, he wanted Sam back but was giving him the I'm-the-big-brother-and-you-do-as-you're-told-routine at the same time: Dean was back (from Hell) and immediately Sam had to fall in line, do what he was told and was expected to follow Dean's lead. Whenever he tried to do something his way (like saving people with his powers) Dean told him to stop doing it because the angels said so. Exactly like John always handled Sam, "do what I tell you, no questions asked, no reasons given". Which didn't work for John and sure as Hell would never work for Dean.

Whatever Sam had accomplished in the time where Dean had been gone, however much Sam had grown up was completely ignored once Dean was back, it was big brother against little brother again, with the added twist that Sam couldn't be trusted even less now because he was working together with a demon.

So, whatever Dean told Sam in seasons 2 or 3 is completely irrelevant once he came back from Hell since everything he did then was treat Sam like the little brother he had left behind.

And then Dean tells him he wants him back as his partner and just one episode later he goes on like he always does, bossing Sam around, not caring about what he thinks and generally telling Sam to "shut up" even when Sam has facts to back up his theory that their case isn't over. That's not how equal partners would react, that's bossy!Dean and nothing more.

So while she might be arguing in favor of Sam I don't think it's fair to blame everything on the writers when Sam criticises Dean.

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Ravanne
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 218

    11/02/09 at 01:55 PM
  Reply with quote#47

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammypup

Isn't that amazing coming from a Deangirl! I totally respect her so much.

It really goes to show that the vast majority of DeanGirls aren't necessarily anti-Sam. In fact, most of them do hold Sam in enormous affection even if their first love is Dean. It's only the EDGs (and now the ECGs) that seem to feel that nothing Sam every says or does is right and that Dean would be infinitely better off if Sam just fell of a cliff or something.

I really do think that the writers have been failing both Sam and Dean miserably in getting out all the important conversations and it's reached a point where it really isn't excusable. We can't keep chalking it up to not having the time for these "chick flick" moments while the Apocalpse is breaking loose - not with time spent on filler eps and waaayy too much time devoted on Castiel. It's just sloppy writing and losing control over the plot. There's just no justification for so much to happen screen and for us to learn it after the fact, expecially when you're dealing with such critical events for these characters.

I realize that in the context of an hour-long weekly program (with around 40 minutes of actual story-telling time minus commericals) that there is a limit to what they can squeeze in, but it is endlessly frustrating to have issues brought up, and then dropped because there just isn't time to explore them. Especially when they feel the need to keep introducing new characters and plot points that seem to take presidence. I know I keep saying that this is why we have fanfiction, but it's a less than satisfactory way for the series to play out. If I have to keep imagining what's actually happening in regards to major plot points, then the writers are just not doing their jobs.

This ep was useful for two basic reasons - we did finally get a little insight into what Bobby is going through, and we got Sam have a few moments to step out of his brother's shadow. Could all of this been done within the context of an ep that actually focuses on the major storyline. Certainly. Can we have an Apocalypse-based ep that doesn't neglect vital character development? Absolutely. The fact that the SPN writers seem to have lost the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time is hurting the show.

I enjoyed TCCODW, but it's not exactly going to go down as a favorite. It wasn't necessary to do an episode like this at this point, not directly after another filler ep.

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sammypup
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Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 55

    11/02/09 at 02:05 PM
  Reply with quote#48

I can't argue with you, Mikiya, because you make very valid points that I also agree with.
I think what I appreciated was the reviewer pointing out the discrepancies in Sam's characterization by the writers that she summed up in her last paragraph. 
I feel the writers have failed Sam in 3 major ways ...
1. in Sex and Violence, where under the Siren spell Sam tells Dean he is weak.
and
2. in Fallen Idols, where he says ONE of the reasons he went with Ruby was to get away from Dean.
and 
3. The biggest failing of all was for the writers to NOT SHOW us what Sam is thinking and feeling (and focusing solely on Dean all the time to the point of nauseum) so that at least we could understand and sympathize with Sam.

Of all the things they could have had Sam say in those 2 instances, I cannot tell you how disappointed I was to hear those ridiculous statements. It made me feel that all of them with the exception of Sera (sometimes) are so busy squeeing over episodes like 'The End" where they get to write for 2 Deans that none of them (including Kripke) really care about Sam or depicting him properly. To make him sympathetic, they resort to making Dean so OTT bossy that it is beyond stupidity. The writers are laughably even starting to fail Dean now.

Do the writers even know who Sam Winchester really is beyond a plot device for Dean? Sadly, no.

I read somewhere there was a writer and a producer that were gone after season 2 (I don't remember their names) and I think with them was gone the heart of Sam Winchester. And now with Kim Manners gone, the brothers' relationship is suffering being reduced to Dean making high school cringeworthy jokes and Sam bitchfacing in reaction. Sam and Dean were so much more than that. There used to be so many incredible, subtle nuances that so beautifully defined them. Remember Dean putting out his arm to stop an upset Sam oblivious to an oncoming car in "Nightmare". Those Sam and Dean are gone forever. 

Anyway, maybe I chose a wrong review from her but really she has great stuff to say about Sam and Jared and I love her for being so unbiased.


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DEAN:
You’ve always known what you want. And you go after it. You stand up to Dad. And you always have. Hell, I wish I—anyway….I admire that about you. I’m proud of you, Sammy.
sammypup
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Posts: 55

    11/02/09 at 02:19 PM
  Reply with quote#49

originally posted by Ravanne
Quote:
The fact that the SPN writers seem to have lost the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time is hurting the show.

Trufax in a nutshell!!! Applause! Applause!

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DEAN:
You’ve always known what you want. And you go after it. You stand up to Dad. And you always have. Hell, I wish I—anyway….I admire that about you. I’m proud of you, Sammy.
pinkphoenix1985
Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 71

    11/02/09 at 02:54 PM
  Reply with quote#50

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammypup

I read somewhere there was a writer and a producer that were gone after season 2 (I don't remember their names) and I think with them was gone the heart of Sam Winchester.

The writer was Raelle Tucker who left for True Blood 
Mikiya
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 882

    11/02/09 at 04:22 PM
  Reply with quote#51

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammypup

Anyway, maybe I chose a wrong review from her but really she has great stuff to say about Sam and Jared and I love her for being so unbiased.



Please don't get me wrong, I really like it that I don't have to read "Jensen is the only important thing on the show, without him there wouldn't be anything" for once, it's just that this review completely was not what I got from the show! Gotta have to read more from her later.

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sammypup
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Posts: 55

    11/02/09 at 06:29 PM
  Reply with quote#52

Not to worry. Mikiya. I always really enjoy reading your comments. You make my head become very thinky and I love that.

And you were right as I didn't get that from the Show either. I was just understanding her review from another perspective.



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DEAN:
You’ve always known what you want. And you go after it. You stand up to Dad. And you always have. Hell, I wish I—anyway….I admire that about you. I’m proud of you, Sammy.
tyranusfan
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Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 2,539

    11/02/09 at 07:19 PM
  Reply with quote#53

Quote:
Originally Posted by IvyB
Quote:
Clap. The Clap.


Ouch, sorry. I'm gonna use my get-out-of-jail-free "I'm not an American" card. I must have been too lazy to double check the name. I'm not even sure which STD that is in Hebrew... I still think it was uncalled for and generally speaking the writers' humor is like a fifth grader and I tend not to be amused by it.


It's Gonorrhea. And, it came out of no where. It's not like Sam is the sexually active one of the two (traditionally, thought that's changing), so I don't know why a psychic witch would choose to inflict a STD on him. We're clearly missing the joke, here.

Quote:
Still not sure why they didn't kill Patrick. They had the glass (unless his girlfriend drank from that glass?) and Patrick put the real toothpick next to Sam. It seems kinda risky to just let him go on playing people for their years...


Beats me. Like I said, weak script.



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tyranusfan
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Posts: 2,539

    11/02/09 at 07:20 PM
  Reply with quote#54

Quote:
Originally Posted by GG101

Holy crap it's T-fan!!! Where the heck have you been?   Haven't seen you around since.... S4?




It's only the first month of S5... 

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Accounting is all data entry and math... I can't think of a better job for robots. Except for murdering humans...robots would be pretty good at that too.
Mikiya
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    11/02/09 at 07:32 PM
  Reply with quote#55

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyranusfan
We're clearly missing the joke, here.



I firmly believe they put it in there so that Jared could scrunch his nose that way cause he looks sooo adorable doing it! Really, must be the reason. *nods to self*

On a second thought: Maybe we all should do some research on adolescent humor so we won't be left behind if the writers decide to pick up the pace. I was going to say that I was just waiting for the first fart-joke, but... oh well, been there, done that, huh?

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twinny
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Posts: 592

    11/02/09 at 09:28 PM
  Reply with quote#56

Despite my usually wordy self, I don't have much to say about this episode at the moment except that I really, r.e.a.l.l.y, REALLY enjoyed it! There wasn't too much going on but I honestly loved the character parts to bits and pieces. It had such a lovely amount of Bobby, Dean (old and young) and Sammy.

The guy who played Patrick did a really swell job of portraying him in a very diverse way, so in spite of the people who got killed after they lost too many years in his poker game, he never really came across as a menace, an evil entity that the Winchesters plus Bobby should get rid of for the sake of humanity. And I totally got the impression that although being pretty surprised at Sam's bluff, he never begrudged Sammy his victory and was glad to restore Dean to his former, young self.

And Sammy did such a wonderful con, I wanted to smish him so bad! He is fully aware of the impression he has on other people but he is strategic and cunning enough to use this to his advantage if he has to. No one can resist the puppy-dog eyes of doom!

Chad Everett did a truly magnificent job at bringing Dean's older version to life. He definitely outdid himself with the way he channeled Jensen Ackles' portrait of Dean. In all his moves and gestures and expressions you could see it was really Dean and not someone else trying hard to pose as older Dean. That was one formidable job he did. Not for one moment did I doubt it was really Dean standing right in front of Sam. And Sam behaved every bit of accepting Dean's temporary appearance. Jared Padalecki and Chad Everett never missed a beat and it felt very organic, like the chemistry he has with Jensen Ackles. Therefore, olderDean was extremely believable.

Bobby and oldDean's quips and quick-witted talks were undoubtedly a highlight of the episode. These two worked so well together. And I loved how Bobby reacted to Dean's never-ending stream of complaints about his old body. I especially enjoyed the scene in the graveyard when Dean dug the grave. Excellently done!

The young Cliff right at the beginning of the episode was a real stunner look-wise! Boy, did they find someone who worked the part of a ladies man like only Dean does. No wonder the elder Winchester seemed to connect to him so easily. I liked the parting words Dean gave Cliff.

I was sad to hear how Bobby feels about his paralysis but I understand where he comes from. In my opinion that kind of mind-set is quite believable for someone as active as Bobby to end up handicapped. And I too think that the talk between him and Dean at the end was very sweet and also very important for them. I have no doubt that Bobby knows exactly how Sam feels about this (after all, the kid isn't bleeding-heart-Sammy for nothing), so it was really only necessary to have Dean give Bobby's self-worth a boost again. And they did it in a quiet and good manner.

I absolutely adored that in this episode Dean twice said "Sammy" and he meant it in the most concerned and love-filled way possible. This was really Dean who deeply cared about his baby brother, and for once there was nothing between them but the connection of their brotherly bond.

My only minor complaints about the episode was a) that I wasn't such a fan of Patrick giving Sam the clap. That was so not necessary. He could easily have come up with something more fitting for someone who broke into his home. I agree that it was played for cheap laughs but on the other hand, it's not like I think it was totally off. I can deal with it. Though I wouldn't have wanted to be in Sammy's shoes when he went to the doctor.

Patrick's girl, Lia, was a bit too obvious in her motives. I feel like that whole thing with her amulet and the picture of her daughter could have been played a little subtler.

All in all, I truly enjoyed this ep and will certainly re-watch it numerous times because it had awesome characterizations.

So much for not wordy this time around.

But most of all, glad to have you back T-fan! We missed you terribly.


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tyranusfan
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Posts: 2,539

    11/03/09 at 06:52 PM
  Reply with quote#57

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinny

Despite my usually wordy self,....

So much for not wordy this time around.


I can see that...  


Quote:
But most of all, glad to have you back T-fan! We missed you terribly.



Thanks.


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Accounting is all data entry and math... I can't think of a better job for robots. Except for murdering humans...robots would be pretty good at that too.
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